Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

Sunday, 29 June 2008 18:53

Onyourtoes,

You are absolutely right as far as we can see, insightful, and give clarity to this matter.

Sambatogo. 

Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

Monday, 30 June 2008 11:13

Dear all & good morning to you as well onyourtoes

If you forgive me you have written so much and asked me so many questions it will take time to digest and comment on. However here goes.

From your earlier post.

While much of what you say is of course relevant, it really belongs to the minutiae rather than the general in respect of a world governing body.

What I say here now is my own personal opinion (it always has been but I just want to clarify). To help you and get our thoughts together I've also listed each point. Hope that's OK. I'm not trying to be bombastic; it's the scientist in me. I try to be as logical as possible.

Just before replying to this forum, I did some research into the International Skating Union. Skating is our nearest relative sport wise so we would do well to look at how skating is organised. Both nationally and internationally there are many similarities. Much of what I say will have resonance with this sport.

1. I believe strongly in having just one world govening body irrespective of whether you are a professional or amateur. I also believe strongly in just one national governing body. All governing bodies should be democratically constituted and democratically elected. A proper constitution should be created (I suggest the ISU model a useful one).

2. National governing bodies should be be based on affiliation/membership and not on incorporation (as is the case with the BDC).

3. The jurisdiction of the world governing body should only cover matters relating to world Dance Sport. It should not have any jurisdiction in any national affair except for rules and regulations which are collectively agreed should apply to member countries. For example {not saying it should, it's only a suggestion} dress code, restriction of figures for Juveniles.

While I disagree that the IDSF should place bans on people in respect of the amateur league I do believe based on what I have said above they have the right to do so. As regards Assen, this a national competition so the IDSF has no right to get involved. They should as the yanks say - butt out.

Incidentally I use the term Dance Sport to cover social dancing as well as competitive dance sport. This answers your point about non competition teachers. Any teacher of any form of social dancing that is recognised by our governing bodies should be covered by their rules.

4. If there is to remain a professional / amateur set up then neither side should dominate or be given any special treatment except in terms of who is allowed to enter world competitive events.

I understand your point that professionals fear they might be dominated by the larger amateur body. It doesn't happen in Skating (as far as I am aware) so it shouldn't happen in Dance Sport. But this is something that should be discussed at the time of negotating the set up of a world (& national) governing body.

5. The world governing body should be responsible for creating a mission statement and vision of how it sees itself in terms of Dance Sport development world wide. The IDSF currently does this - whether you agree with it is the crux of the problems we have now. The WDC has a wishy washy statement on its web site. At least it has one - the same can't be said for the IDSF. At least, I can't see a statement. The idea of their 'vision' is based on inference from everything else I see on their site including their latest videos.

I know I haven't answered everything you mentioned in you second to last post. As I said at the start all the points you make while relevant can only be answered after a world body is created. What matters and I believe it is a matter of urgency is to decide whether we agree there should be just one world governing body (as is the case with just about every sport in the world) regardless of whether their are professionals or amateurs.

While the IDSF made a mistake in stating the 'train has left the station and the WDC are not on it' I am not sure what you would have expected the IDSF to do. Those involved in the IDSF have stated quite openly what they wanted to see happen. The WDC could have got involved in discussing this but didn't. Is that the IDSF's fault. (I am playing devil's advocate here - I am not trying to apologise for the IDSF).

I don't believe it's too late for both sides to bury their differences and start talking. That's all I ask of them. That's all I have ever asked of them. But if they don't, Martyn's description of what happened in his other sport will occur in Dance Sport. I know you don't think it has any relevance but I do.

One last point and this is to everyone reading this not just onyourtoes. Even if you don't agree with everything here, please offer suggestions to improve rather than simply attacking my opinion. As I said earlier I am open to having my mind changed but only if there is a much better alternative.

The question now is: Do you want ONE world governing body or TWO or perhaps more?

If you do want 2 or more then please say how that helps orderly governance, because I can't see it. We have loads of 'world govening bodies' now and look where we are and where we are probably heading - down the swany!

Best wishes

Steve

Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

Monday, 30 June 2008 12:35

My previous post came up all funny. Not sure why.

Steve

Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

Monday, 30 June 2008 14:02

Dear moderate man.

Please expand. If you are referring to my last post rather than the one before then I think you had better get hold of the facts first.

The Boyce's knew what they were doing. EADA had no choice. They broke EADA's rules. As the Boyce's were members of  EADA and EADA was and still is a member of the IDSF (much to the anger of you and others) then andstill are the couple took part in an event the IDSF (and EADA) did not recognise. What did you expect the IDSF to do? They had every right to punish the couple. The WDC and BDC would have done exactly the same.

You can choose to join any organisation you want. But when you do, you have no right to flagrantly ignore the rules you agreed to abide by simply because it doesn't fit in with your own personal agenda. If you believe that  you can then don't tell me you believe in democracy. Why do you think there is so much trouble in Zimbabwe? Mugabe deliberately chose to ignore the results of the election. The Boyces (with the backing of the WDC I believe) chose to ignore the rules of the IDSF and EADA. And they wonder why they were punished. The Boyce's did not  choose to join the IDSF, but they did choose to join EADA. As  EADA is a member of the IDSF, by inference the Boyces became members of the IDSF. Until the time when EADA leaves the IDSF then all members of EADA including my son (represented by me) have no choice but to abide by the rules.

Oh but some here think now that oh the IDSF are evil so let's join the WDC amateur league. And then complain when the IDSF take action against them. While your organisation is still a member of the iDSF then you have no right to expect to receive the benefits of you organisation if you deliberately choose to also join another organisation which is directly opposed to the one you originally joined.

That's called having your cake and eating it. It's also selfish.

If you don't like the rules you originally agreed to abide by you either leave completely or you get yourself elected and campaign to change them. Deliberately ignoring them is not only discourteous to all those who are prepared to abide by them it is also completely self centred..

If you are referring to my earlier response to onyourtoes then please elucidate. In what way is the WDC doing what you say it is doing. I see no evidence of developing a proper constituted world governing body that encompasses al,l democratically. Instead,  I see an organisation that is jumping on the bandwagon of amateur disgruntlement in the hope it will see off the IDSF. They may not say that publicly but I bet they say it privately. No doubt the IDSF presidium have the same thoughts.

If I am right and I suspect I am, then the need for one world governing body that shows respect to all sides as outlined above is evem more paramount.

onyourtoes says he wants unity but he adds an extra - 'on what or whose terms'. Unity has no terms. You either create unity or you don't. And when you do create a unified organisation you abide by the rules whether you like them or not. You don't start breaking them simply because you think you can. Which is exactly what the Boyce's did.

That's not democracy. That's anarchy.

Best wishes

Steve

Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

Monday, 30 June 2008 16:45

@ keggs

I am sorry that you chose to abandon the amicable approach.  There is so much in your various posts that is not fact and not accurate that it will take some time to compose a reply as brief as I can possibly make  but I will deaL here with a few issues.

In the meantime please can you answer some questions

Do  you totally and absolutely condemn those Adjudicators who hold both an IDSF and a WDC licence because WDC has permitted this with their "open market policy" which it seems has found no favour with you? 

In your democracy did any ONE english competitor VOTE to become part of EADA no matter whom has recognised it?  

Regretably you give no credit to the Professionals who greatly assisted EADA to gain Government recognition.

In your democracy where EADA members given a VOTE as to whether they wished EADA to join the former organisation or remain today in IDSF.?

Since you areso opposed to BDC/WDC and so in favour of "rules" you would give your blessing to EADA becoming self governing and making a "rule" that no member could take coaching with a WDC member nor compete where there were WDC adjudicators.

In point of fact in those far off years Bad years in your view the amateurs and th pros worked together and encouraged each other for mutual benefit so probably a voze would not have been required... .Today it is very different.

How can you claim you seek Unity .when you condemn the BDC and prefer that EADA break away and become their own governing body? 

How can you claim you want unity when you applaud one "side" being banned from dancing where they choose if this involves the other "side" because its in the "rules",

I would think meeting and competing together would be a great aid for unity.

In your democracy do the IDSF competitors VOTE on the rules and is it forbidden that bad laws be changed, Nothing is carved in stone...

My idea of unity is that we have a number of different bodies they all retain their own identities but come together in equality and mutual respect to form one overall unified governing body and then work for the good of all invol ved with Ballroom/Standard  and Latin.. 

Do you not agree that the "Rules" of bans and boycotts- which have only become "IDSF law" in fairly recent years and contravene legality in most countries.- have been created from fear?.

I get the strong impression that you would excuse IDSF of absolutely any action even if you say you "disagree" or "condemn" you accept. these acts by them and go on to applaud them.  You ignore they have abandoned many of your "vision" and in fact from month to month their "vision" changes so iIt is no surprise to me that you could not explain this "IDSF vision" previously.

How do you square your statements that in Britain the Professionals dominate and then claim that EADA make their own rules.  Could they do this under domination?

I am sorry but one glaring error amongst others was when you wrote "anyone who wants to compete here should register with EADA "

Any person who is registered  as an Amateur in their own country can compete in Britain.

If your words were accurate then can you imagine how EADA membership would grow around Blackpool.? Perhapsyou know that EADA intend to introduce this "rule"

I found your use of the words "dictatorship" very peculiar in the context you have used it when you can see no "dictatorship" in bans boycotts suspensions.

Incidentally I know you are a huge supporter of Dancesúport Australia and ridicule the supposed WDC rump.  Have you noted that DanceSport Australia now represent their country on the WDC..