Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

Monday, 30 June 2008 22:40

Keggs, I am replying to your post of June 30, 17:22

 Points 1 and 2 The BDC rules state that all ballroom competitions held in Britain must be held according to BDC rules.

Points 3 and 4. Again not true and misleading. National IDSF associated associations are asked to use the IDSF bylaws as a guideline when formulating their own bylaws. Even the IDSF does not demand that they follow the IDSF bylaws. In fact by law EADA members must follow EADA bylaws.

Points 6. Both EADA and IDSF had any choice they wished to make. Read their bylaws.

Also I find it very difficult to follow your reasoning in  previous posts where you keep on saying nearly all sports do not have amateur and professional competitors. Soccer, football, basketball, hockey, golf as well as most other sports have amateur competitions and professional competitions.

Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

Tuesday, 01 July 2008 08:17

@ Keggs
This is an extremely difficult post for me. I do not wish it to be "personalities" rather than issues but you regrettably so often include "YOU" and your visions that it becomes almost impossible.
You say that you are prepared to change your opinions but need convincing this certainly is not proven by your words.  You say that you do not support either body but this is not proven by your words.  You say you put yourself in the shoes of the IDSF but then never put yourself in the shoes of the WDC or even the competitors

Reading your words and conviction that WDC is at fault one could be led to believe that you were the  Policy Director and chief negotiator for the IDSF rather than Mr. Bain. Certainly you have rejected both the words and the ideas of Mr. Bain.  You constantly ask for forum members to come up with ideas" but you must know that these ideas would be rejected by IDSF just as they rejected those of Mr. Bain.  What is the title of the Al Gore film ..."AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH"

You give the strongest  impression even if unintentional that you believe you can be the saviour of the dance world and that you have the only correct "vision" and thus have become bitter and resentful towards every Professional who rejects your thinking. .
You most certainly blame anyone who does not surrender to the demands of the IDSF so that one is forced to conclude that your vision of one world (despite your denial) is that the IDSF simply take over with all others surrendering.  Certainly you claim that the fault and blame lies with those who do not submit to the rule/rules of IDSF. Just think there could be peace in our time if we all embrace the IDSF Universe..

I do agree that for the first time you have espoused a new theory that neither IDSF or WDC are suitable and we need "something new" but then you have no idea what this should be.!  If sincere then I would guess you have finally come to realise that IDSF no longer offer the sort of "vision" you hold.  Do not worry it is not uncommon for IDSF to have a January vision a February vision and so on throughout the year. To believe that those who currently hold office in the danceworld in any organisation are going to step aside and let something new come in is totally unrealistic.  I suggest you are simply asking for more disputes and discontent. apart from the basic inconsistency  since IDSF would immediately introduce bans boycooty suspensions claiming THEY were the only recognised blah blah and you would say that is corrtect IDSF have rules and they are the only.........

I have a suggestion it is something written here by others before.  There could and should be a solution by the IOC in their suspending IDSF and insisting they would only grant re-admittance of dancesport when there was just one governing and united body.  This is a solution but I would also say that the reality is IOC have no validity to be making any suggestions or recogniton wirh regard to dance.and there is no benefit to dance through IOC membership. 

You are so convinced that the IDSF has a "vision" simply because of the words on their web site.  That you believe what you read rather than what you witness is bad enough but worse is that you do not go to the Archives on the IDSF web site and see over long years  how many of their grand schemes have been simply words and never become reality. Please I beg you spend some time reading and really absorbing the words you read it might just although I doubt it make you re-evaluate your views. You might even discover how many of your "facts" are IDFS perpetrated "myths"

.
 
I am amused that you claim to want democracy and then inconsistently refuse to allow this to English (and other) Amateurs. For you it would be Anarchy to give dancers a vote and a voice but it would be democracy for EADA to leave the BDC.who according to you have no right to have "Rules" for Great Britain which brings unity. It would make no difference to this unity if Amateurs registered with the WDC  Am League which could also become a part of the BDC and subject to their rules...

 
Over time you have claimed that Dance should follow this or that sport and your latest choice - the ISU.  Quite honestly there are so many glaring differences between Figure Skating, Speed and Precision skating to dance that there is no validity to your argument, It also escapes your vision that all Ice sports are not under one organisation and the International Ice Hockey Federation are a totally separate organisation.  I am nut sure how you formed your view that in ice skating the amateurs and pros manage .  All figure skating competitors are considered Amateur. When competitive ice skaters decide to become Pro almost always they cease competing and become part of a touring Ice Show,  I have seen many World and Olympic champions in such shows - even Romeo and Juliet and Swan Lake on Ice. Later they might return as coaches or choreographers..
 
I have written long enough and agree with moderate-man that there are so many inaccuracies and inconsistency on your part that to debate hardly seems worthwhile as you will never accept anything which is not part of your "vision" or is critical of IDSF.
 
I have asked a great number of questions and you requested time to respond but the answers never come instead (I must conclude that they are too uncomfortable to handle)  instead you do devote your time once again to promote your vision.  Of course it is your right to refuse to answer questions but I suggest it would be easier if you did not write that you would..
 
 
It is unfortunate if all this could come across as personal since that is not intended but you have so often made yourself and your visions the centre of your post that it cannot be avoided..
 
Go in peace and best wishes..

Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

Tuesday, 01 July 2008 12:29

Dear Onyourtoes

At the risk once again of being accused of insulting you which I have never done and have no wish to do, much of what you say about me is once more twisted to denigrate my own personal views. Would it not be more valuable to offer your own ideas?

I am not in the pay of the IDSF. I am simply a teacher and coach with yes, strong views  and very strong ideas about what I see as wrong in the dance world and how I would like to see it improved. There is nothing wrong in that. It is unlikely that anyone will take these ideas on board but there is always hope that someone who does have some clout in our world will realise that others - you, me and anyone else contributing could have an idea worth exploring.

There has been decades of confrontation betwen the 2 sides of dance sport - professional and amateur. It may not have been as open as it is now but it has been there nevertheless.

The professional side has for decades been calling the shots on just about every policy ever made. This has thankfully now changed but it has left bitter resentment which is one reason (I repeat one reason in case some decide to accuse me of saying the WDC is totally to blame) why we are in the situation we are in.

Previously you suggested that everything in Britain is rosy between the 2 sides. Where have you been living for the past 40 years? The 2 sides in Britain (I cannot speak for other nations) has not been one of mutual fruitful coperative behaviour. It has been one of mistrust and fear on the part of amateurs, worried about saying anything in case it harms their career. Martyn's opening statement is testament to that. In fact, even some professional are worried about upsetting the establishment. Is that a climate I want to see continue? You bet I don't. Which is why I have been calling for a much more open and democratic system.

It also took a member of the then OBBD - Eric morley - to create BADA the foreunner of EADA as a sop to amateurs. Before then, amateurs were treated just as a meal ticket by the profession in general. I know, I was there when it was going on. I was a young impressionable amateur competitor in those days.

I do not hate the WDC and other professionals and blame them for everything as you imply. Equally, I do not accept everything that the IDSF does or has done as being right. All are to blame for the current situation.

The problem with this forum is that most of the contributors on this forum seem to possess unbridled hatred for one particular organisation, namely the IDSF. This is unbalanced. As such, I felt I had to address the situation, whilst at the same provoking discussion into how we can improve things. Rather than help get people to come up with new ways of thinking, it appears all I have done is simply encouraged the anti IDSF lobby to bury themselves deeper in their bunkers. I regret that. But it also tells me 1 thing -  the anti IDSF lobby have no real interest in solving this developing crisis. Rather they want to see it perpetuate in the hope that the IDSF will implode. If I am wrong in that assumption then tell me. But do it without derision. You could really prove me wrong by making a proper valuable contribution full of ideas. But I guess that is too much to hope for.

You deride the IDSF's vision. At least the IDSF does have a vision. That is a matter of fact for all to see. Whether I agree with it, you agree agree with it is of little relevance to this fact. They have one which is in stark contrast to the WDC. If the latter does have a vision I see little evidence for it or at the very least they are keeping deadly quiet about it.

I am not the saviour of dancing either in this country or world wide but I have offered my own ideas which is a far cry to anyone else here. Further, when I think about it the ideas are not that radical. What's radical about suggesting one world govening body which everyone can agree to? If others can do it, what makes us so different that we think we can do things better by not going down that route, not to mention learn from other people and organisations. That's arrogance.

It is your and other people's choice whether or not to agree with those ideas but I am not prepared to be bullied into accepting what you or anyone else believes to be the 'truth' just because you or anyone else says it's the 'truth' about the IDSF, WDC or any other body you care to mention. Nor do have any intention nor have I ever done so to force you and others to accept my truth. I have offered my suggestions and vision in the spirit it was intended - to discuss, help and come up with something better, if that is possible.

We all have prejudices based on past experience. As a trained scientist as well as a dance teacher I analyse things in depth and carry out research. I do not always get it right and am willing to accept that I can get it wrong. But I make my suggestions for improvement (and I repeat I am the only one here who has done so rather than simply attacking one group or another) in the hope it might just spark something imaginative.

As far as I am concerned I hold fast to my belief that there is only one solution that just about every sport in the world uses - one world body representing all involved in the sport. If you or anyone else here disagrees with that. Fine. But do everyone else a favour - suggest something better, don't just attack me for daring to suggest it. But I guess it's easier to do the latter isn't it?

Quote:

"I have asked a great number of questions and you requested time to respond but the answers never come instead (I must conclude that they are too uncomfortable to handle)  instead you do devote your time once again to promote your vision.  Of course it is your right to refuse to answer questions but I suggest it would be easier if you did not write that you would."

How dare you. I said I will answer your questions and I will but I will do it in my own time. I will not be bullied by you or anyone else.

As for my vision. At least I have one. Do you?

Quote:

"Over time you have claimed that Dance should follow this or that sport and your latest choice - the ISU.  Quite honestly there are so many glaring differences between Figure Skating, Speed and Precision skating to dance that there is no validity to your argument, It also escapes your vision that all Ice sports are not under one organisation and the International Ice Hockey Federation are a totally separate organisation.  I am nut sure how you formed your view that in ice skating the amateurs and pros manage .  All figure skating competitors are considered Amateur. When competitive ice skaters decide to become Pro almost always they cease competing and become part of a touring Ice Show,  I have seen many World and Olympic champions in such shows - even Romeo and Juliet and Swan Lake on Ice. Later they might return as coaches or choreographers.."

What does it matter whether this organisation ot that organisation is a member of or not a member of a particular world body (or national body) or that there are differences between us and skating. You've missed the point entirely.

The point is that we can learn a lot from what other organisations do. Take from their ideas what could work for us and reject those ideas that won't. What the latter half of your quote has to do with anything is also beyond me.

Quote:

"It is unfortunate if all this could come across as personal since that is not intended but you have so often made yourself and your visions the centre of your post that it cannot be avoided.."

Yes it does and it always has been personal. To misqote Skakespeare. You protest too much.

Not once have you offered any real cocrete, practical suggestions or your own vision. Instead you and others here seem to want to satisfy your own egos by having a go at me or anyone else that happens to disagree. I seem to be the only one. Others have been frightened off it seems. Your answer is: what is the point in suggesting anything it will only be rejected by the IDSF. That's a non answer. Have you ever tried?

You constantly refer to Vince Bain and the IDSF's rejection of his propsals. He and I appear to have much in common from the denigrating attitude of those who attack me for daring to suggest change. I hesitate to use the word hypocritical.

I will answer your questions if that is your wish but if I hesitate to do so it is simply because it would not matter what reply I gave you, you will always have some ready, off the shelf carping statement to make. Then on top you will also accuse me of being inconsistent. If I am inconsistent I challenge to state where I am. Simply stating that I am is unbalanced.

And that doesn't even include my 'insulting attitude'.

Perhaps Martyn is right afterall. Perhaps it would be better for Dance Sport to split. I say that tongue in cheek by the way. It isn't part of my vision.

Best wishes

Steve